"Build Your Brand" - May 8, 2020

A place to discuss the weekly Wall Street Journal Crossword Puzzle Contest, starting every Thursday around 4:00 p.m. Eastern time. Please do not post any answers or hints before the contest deadline which is midnight Sunday Eastern time.
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burak
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#361

Post by burak »

BethA wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 4:46 pm My $0.02 — I’d be in favor of a return to a strict no nudges asked or given policy.

Everyone can wait til the official deadline, and learn just as much about meta solving strategies afterwards as beforehand.
I have thought a lot about nudges because I'm that guy who goes through all the rules and makes sure everyone gets it before we play a board game. In general, I don't like nudges if it's a contest puzzle because:

i) It is a slippery slope. If everyone asked for nudges, then everyone would get the answer as long as there are enough people on this forum who solved the puzzle -which is always the case-. Imagine a contest where everyone gets the answer beforehand, the entire idea of a contest is dead in that case.
ii) There will always be people who won't be aware of this forum/who won't have friends and family who solve the puzzle/who are ethically opposed to nudges. That becomes an unfair advantage in the long run, and it's especially bothersome if you see everyone asking for nudges and you don't because that makes you feel like a sucker.
iii) There is a slim chance that this forum turns into a nudge market if people join the platform only to ask for help. This is very unlikely now but if we had 5000 members, there is a reality where nudge messages overwhelm the conversation any given week.

All that being said, it's impossible to regulate nudges. People could privately ask others, some people already have friends so they get "nudges" anyway, it is bad vibes... Unless the constructor/organizer said "well, please do this by yourself", you can't control people's preferences on an ambiguity. It's not cheating unless the rules explicitly say so even if it might feel like it.

In a way it's like the debate on performance enhancing drugs. Caffeine is technically a PED but you can't ban athletes from drinking coffee. So you can't ever create an all-encompassing list of banned substances, and there will be people who find loopholes/use novel substances that are not strictly banned etc. It's also morally ambiguous: some countries are super rich and have access to mega facilities with state-of-the-art medical/technological stuff. Why should it be bad for an athlete from an underdeveloped country to try and make up for that completely legal disadvantage? Basically all athletes feel the need to get a "nudge" and probably everyone does in some form or shape. There's no definite answer to that debate.

tl;dr I don't like nudges but it is and will always be a reality unless the meta constructor explicitly says they are against it. Or if all forum users agree that we shouldn't get nudges, we simply don't. It's not like you can Google a meta answer, you need another person who actually solved it.
Last edited by burak on Mon May 11, 2020 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MajordomoTom
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#362

Post by MajordomoTom »

if you're going to start a discussion on caffeine, you better get ready for a REAL WAR.

:)
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
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Joe Ross
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#363

Post by Joe Ross »

Filled in the grid & thought I had strong scent of the answer, but was no where close. The rabbit hole, below, had me chasing several repeated character strings.

I'm adding a new rule to my TOP TEN Dos & Don'ts: Don't chase repeated character strings.

20200508 WSJCC BYB JRrh#3 106.gif
Last edited by Joe Ross on Mon May 11, 2020 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dow Jones
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#364

Post by Dow Jones »

Being a former smoker, I saw 24D "Kool's (cigarette brand) backers" while working on the grid. But that was the only one that stood out, so I dismissed finding a "brand" in the clues.
JeanneC
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#365

Post by JeanneC »

DBMiller wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:00 am There are five brands found in the clues (Not the grid!), that are confirmed to be one of the meta-related items because they also have an alternate answer in one of the long answers.

22a) Job for a SINGER = Aria/Torn Curtain
68a) Frequent openers and closers in a SUBWAY = Doors/Toaster Ovens
1d) Must-have for a MUSTANG, maybe = Oats/Premium Gasoline
55a) Useful tool when you're hitting a TARGET = Bow/Shopping Cart
6a) It has abundant LIFE = Earth/Cereal Aisle

The first letters of the original answers in order of the longer answers spells ADOBE
Thank you so much for your explanation! Much clearer to me now!
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FKelly
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#366

Post by FKelly »

This really isn't fair if you cannot print the puzzle out. I copied it by hand and now it's an absolute mess.

Ford is a company. Mustang is a brand/model.
Singer is a corporation. What's the brand?
Subway appears to be a franchise. Is it also a brand? Never been there, so why associate them with TOASTEROVENS?
Target is corporation, not a brand. They sell "brands" like Quaker Oats Life.
Nycerjohnnie
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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:01 am

#367

Post by Nycerjohnnie »

As with the rascal/scalawag puzzle a few weeks back, if it’s necessary to look in the clues, the solve rate plummets.
LaceyK
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#368

Post by LaceyK »

Kool was my fifth Brand before I figured out how the brands matched the Theme answers (that would be hubby saying, a Mustang needs premium gasoline). And me then having the AHA moment of why the Curtain is Torn. Then we were left with CerealAisle. I'm thinking I would have noticed LuckyCharms or FruitLoops or Post or Kellogg. So I scoured the Clues, and from the end for some odd reason, and it took awhile to find life hiding, lurking. It's funny how when a Brand name is not capitalized, it becomes so invisible!
Big Mac
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#369

Post by Big Mac »

Diabolical.

Not my favorite mechanism given the stretching required (Singer potentially needed) and the "Build your Brand" title being more misleading than helpful to the solve imo. But still, I'm impressed. I spent the last 24 hours looking almost exclusively at the clues and never came close to sniffing the right lead.
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sanmilton
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#370

Post by sanmilton »

Well, I've spent much of the weekend at sea, and a rocky cruise it was. I even refilled the grid from scratch today, finally noticing mustang, at least, but that's about as far as I got. Even if I'd spotted the others, I doubt that I would ever have realized that the entire clues that contained them redefined the theme entries. I am truly in awe of those who solved this and thus felt that it was a really fun puzzle! But colossal kudos to M.G., a brand all unto himself, for the glittering ingenuity on display here. I'm sure he had fun, too. I'm kicking myself, but only a little, for not spending longer poring over the peculiar phraseology of the "double" clues. "Job for a singer" for ARIA should have been my first clue! BLNT!
burak
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#371

Post by burak »

When I started solving metas, I would read experienced meta solvers saying "watch out for weird clues" and I'd in my head say "what does that even mean?" Well, three years passed and now I know what to do.

As soon as I saw the clue "Job for a singer" I had the lightbulb. Then I googled cereal brands, figured out life should be in the clues somewhere and boom. However, now that I had A - - - E I became very convinced that APPLE was gonna be the answer. I spent the next 20-30 minutes trying to make that answer work. After extensive Googling, I found "Joovy Caboose strollers" -> Caboose's position = LAST -> SHOPPING CART which fit, but no that couldn't be it? Then I said to myself "you silly rabbit, look for some other bizarre clues, don't ever force an answer into a solution", re-noticed "mustang" and off to the races.
Tony S
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#372

Post by Tony S »

KAS 5. I raced through the grid on Thursday and made several attempts to solve the meta but gave up by Friday --- at least I didn't waste my weekend trying to solve this very byzantine puzzle.
Last edited by Tony S on Mon May 11, 2020 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DrTom
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#373

Post by DrTom »

FKelly wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:44 am This really isn't fair if you cannot print the puzzle out. I copied it by hand and now it's an absolute mess.

Ford is a company. Mustang is a brand/model.
Singer is a corporation. What's the brand?
Subway appears to be a franchise. Is it also a brand? Never been there, so why associate them with TOASTEROVENS?
Target is corporation, not a brand. They sell "brands" like Quaker Oats Life.
Well it may be an age thing, or experience thing.

We had a singer (a foot-pedal one that my Mom and sister actually used when I was a kid). Yes it was Singer corporation but everyone who had one of those machines referred to it as their Singer.

The fact that you have never been to Subway is a drawback of course, because if you had you would have seen/heard them asking if you wanted your sandwich toasted or not and then, assuming you did, opening the door and popping it into the ever present toaster oven they have to heat the subs. That may have been the hardest "connect" of them all.

Target is a corporation to be sure, but the bullseye and TARGET are registered trademarks of Target Brands, So, yeah not perfect and there are distinctly some nits that could be picked, but I'm afraid there are way too many folks who got the answer for the fine points to account for much in an appeal. Nobody says "I'm going to the Target Corporation store, want to come" It is more like "Let's go to Target" (and grab a shopping cart.)
NUDGES!I am always willing to give nudges where needed; metas should be about fun, not frustration. Send me what you have done so far because often you are closer than you think!
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DrTom
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#374

Post by DrTom »

Tony S wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:06 am KAS 5. I raced through the grid on Thursday and made several attempts to solve the meta but gave up by Friday --- at least I didn't waste my weekend trying to solve this very byzantine puzzle.
Wow, byzantine, that's a questionable call, let's check with the Empire! :D
NUDGES!I am always willing to give nudges where needed; metas should be about fun, not frustration. Send me what you have done so far because often you are closer than you think!
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oldjudge
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#375

Post by oldjudge »

DrTom wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:13 am
Tony S wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:06 am KAS 5. I raced through the grid on Thursday and made several attempts to solve the meta but gave up by Friday --- at least I didn't waste my weekend trying to solve this very byzantine puzzle.
Wow, byzantine, that's a questionable call, let's check with the Empire! :D
Tom-I don’t care if you never solve another meta, you are my hero. Thanks for making the board more enjoyable. BTW, my mom had a pedal Singer sewing machine also. Today that would be called a cardio-seamstresses.
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DrTom
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#376

Post by DrTom »

oldjudge wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:18 am
DrTom wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:13 am
Tony S wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:06 am KAS 5. I raced through the grid on Thursday and made several attempts to solve the meta but gave up by Friday --- at least I didn't waste my weekend trying to solve this very byzantine puzzle.
Wow, byzantine, that's a questionable call, let's check with the Empire! :D
Tom-I don’t care if you never solve another meta, you are my hero. Thanks for making the board more enjoyable. BTW, my mom had a pedal Singer sewing machine also. Today that would be called a cardio-seamstresses.
Jay,

Well I'd like to think it wasn't NEVER, but I do like when I can tee up a perfectly good pun. Oh. and cardio-seamstress is taken, what do you think the call cardiovascular surgeons!!
NUDGES!I am always willing to give nudges where needed; metas should be about fun, not frustration. Send me what you have done so far because often you are closer than you think!
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tigerfly222
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#377

Post by tigerfly222 »

DrTom wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:06 am
FKelly wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:44 am
Ford is a company. Mustang is a brand/model.
Singer is a corporation. What's the brand?
Subway appears to be a franchise. Is it also a brand? Never been there, so why associate them with TOASTEROVENS?
Target is corporation, not a brand. They sell "brands" like Quaker Oats Life.
Well it may be an age thing, or experience thing.

We had a singer (a foot-pedal one that my Mom and sister actually used when I was a kid). Yes it was Singer corporation but everyone who had one of those machines referred to it as their Singer.

The fact that you have never been to Subway is a drawback of course...

Target is a corporation to be sure, but the bullseye and TARGET are registered trademarks of Target Brands...
More in hindsight than anything else, I chose to interpret "Brand" in a more general sense, not just as a literal trademarked product name. These days you even hear individual people talking about "creating their personal brand." IMHO a brand has been created when, upon hearing the name, you instantly associate with other words or adjectives; the name STANDS for something; it means something. Success is differentiating your brand from your competitors', in whatever sense that may be.

Call me a victim of advertising (after all, I did just recently finish watching the entire Mad Men series), but I'll take a stab at these five, in no particular order:
SUBWAY: Healthy, fast (and oh, that fresh bread smell)
MUSTANG: Power, muscle, classic
TARGET: Value, design, fun
SINGER: Tradition, ease, craft
LIFE: Kids, breakfast, Hey Mikey!
howardl
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#378

Post by howardl »

Some people have asked for incremental nudges (now that the puzzle answer is posted). I'll post this and four subsequent posts for people who want to do the meta, and haven't already seen the answer.

Hint 1. There are five “long answers”. They are key to solving the meta.
howardl
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#379

Post by howardl »

Hint 2. This is the hard part. Take one of the long answers. Read through all the clues. (The clues, not the answers in the grid.) See if you can find another clue that might have been used to clue that long answer. For example, suppose one of the long answers was “GEORGE WASHINGTON” (it isn’t) and the clue to that was “first president”. Then suppose there was another clue “NYC bridge named for him” and suppose the answer in the grid was Verrazzano. But that clue “NYC bridge named for him” could have been used as a clue for GEORGE WASHINGTON.
howardl
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#380

Post by howardl »

Hint 3. If you are having trouble in step 2 – here’s an additional hint. Each of the alternative clues has a well known brand name in lower case. I don’t have this in my example, but if there were a well known fast food chain called Bridge, then my example would qualify – the clue “NYC bridge named for him” contains a word bridge, which if capitalized is (in this imaginary world) a well known brand.
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