#54 - "No Need To Fill Me In"

Creative and challenging meta crosswords (currently on hiatus) from: www.pgwcc.net
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Al Sisti
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#21

Post by Al Sisti »

Al Sisti wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 pm
ChrisKochmanski wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:33 pm I wonder if a few of us have maybe overplayed a bit the "additional level" to this puzzle. Maybe it's not so much an additional level as just an added realization or interpretation that can make the solve especially delicious. But you don't actually need to see this extra ... thing ... to solve the puzzle.

In other words, this is not a PAGEANT situation, for anyone who may be worrying about that.

I can say too that another solver has potentially seen even ANOTHER added twist to the solve, which too can heighten appreciation of the puzzle.

We'll probably want to share thoughts on these "added" ingredients when Peter posts the solution next week.
Yes, well described... between how you put it, and Hector's explanation, that sums up PGW's "extra mile style" better than I did initially.
...the way I tried to explain it was that it was one of those puzzles where, when you first solve it, you might say, "ah, that was easy...I'll give it 2-3 stars;" but when you see -- or when he reveals -- how he constrained himself without it being patently obvious, you wish you could go back and give it 4 or 5 stars.
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#22

Post by LesY »

Just a note in case this happened - I didn't mean to contribute to any perception that this is a difficult meta solve. Once you realize what to do it's a fast path.

Pretty sure I did recognize the "additional level," and at the risk of being a glutton for punishment I sort of wish it had actually been required for the meta solve. That said, I think he's done a meta with a similar theme before (similar to the additional level), so maybe he didn't want to repeat.
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Al Sisti
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#23

Post by Al Sisti »

He's talked about it before... if I recall correctly, the thing that frustrates him when he does a puzzle where people solve it easily, but miss/overlook the true elegance, is the thought "Geez, people... I know I'm a fairly new constructor and all, but do you really think that's the best I'm capable of?" I really hope he chimes in here after the deadline with a bit of a "town hall meeting" (socially distanced, of course), where we can ask him stuff like we're talking about. I'm especially curious to hear what he calls that added -- well, it's not another "level" *(like PAGEANT was)... it's still on the same level, but...something else is cleverly hidden; sometimes for the solve itself, and sometimes for corroboration of a solve... and a couple more stars in the rating. Actually it might be kind of cool to have an "Interview Loft" folder in this forum, where we can "talk to" some of the constructors we've come to know; maybe send them a prepared list of questions "yunz" might have. Kind of like "Master Class" meets "Behind the Actor's Studio."
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hcbirker
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#24

Post by hcbirker »

Took a major detour on this before finding the solution. I also forgot about it until today!
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boharr
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#25

Post by boharr »

I haven’t been able to crack this but I’ll be tuning in at the end because I’m intrigued by this clever hidden aspect everyone is talking about.
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#26

Post by LesY »

Al Sisti wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:17 pm He's talked about it before... if I recall correctly, the thing that frustrates him when he does a puzzle where people solve it easily, but miss/overlook the true elegance, is the thought "Geez, people... I know I'm a fairly new constructor and all, but do you really think that's the best I'm capable of?" I really hope he chimes in here after the deadline with a bit of a "town hall meeting" (socially distanced, of course), where we can ask him stuff like we're talking about. I'm especially curious to hear what he calls that added -- well, it's not another "level" *(like PAGEANT was)... it's still on the same level, but...something else is cleverly hidden; sometimes for the solve itself, and sometimes for corroboration of a solve... and a couple more stars in the rating. Actually it might be kind of cool to have an "Interview Loft" folder in this forum, where we can "talk to" some of the constructors we've come to know; maybe send them a prepared list of questions "yunz" might have. Kind of like "Master Class" meets "Behind the Actor's Studio."
My assumption about his intent was wrong (he wasn’t just adding an Easter Egg, although ‘tis the season). His story to share so I’ll leave it at that.

It might be interesting to swap ideas on how to “fix” it after the deadline. I can think of two - one of which I’m more excited about than the other.
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TMart
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#27

Post by TMart »

I'm looking forward to the post-mortem on this, because maybe I'm dense, but I have no idea what anyone is talking about. This was a pretty quick solve for me (and I'm pretty sure I got it right). I thought it was as elegant as ever, but I didn't notice anything extra above and beyond the usual pgw construction excellence.

Edit: I am dense - thanks for the gentle hint, Hector! Yeah, this one is even better than I thought.
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boharr
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#28

Post by boharr »

First I gotta solve it, then I can search for the extra!
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joequavis
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#29

Post by joequavis »

Awesome puzzle, fun solve, and fun post-solve (one of those that I noticed with one part of my brain, but didn't fully grasp until seeing this discussion).

Now back to WSJ, where my meta-brain has socially distanced itself from me
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boharr
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#30

Post by boharr »

Got WSJ. Nothing here though.
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TPS
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#31

Post by TPS »

I'm lost - definitely not an easy one for me.
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TPS
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#32

Post by TPS »

Hector wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:21 am
boharr wrote: Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:45 am This is the first time I've tried one of these PGWCCs. Got the grid, but now I'm starring at it. Are these metas considered difficult?
Yes, they are! And pgw's are distinctive for being very innovative with "mechanisms" and employing remarkable "constructions" (puzzles meeting combinations of constraints, imposed by the mechanism, that you might not expect to be jointly satisfiable).

As with lots of meta puzzles, it might be useful on this one to print it out, even if you've solved it in an app. That can let you see things and annotate or highlight items of possible interest in the clues, grid, title, and prompt. Always a go-to move when "staring at the grid" doesn't spark insight.

(It should also be a tiny bit helpful and encouraging to see that some solvers seem to have gotten this one "in less than thirty seconds," or the like. It can't be a horribly intricate and obscure mechanism if that's some people's experience. So if you find yourself anagramming the vertically-symmetric letters in every other adjective in the grid, you might be on the wrong track. :P )
I can spend 10 hours and never get metas that people get in 10 seconds. I expect this one will be no different. One jumped out at me in 10 seconds based on one clue that fit the answer but I don't think it fit the title or any other clues.
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TPS
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#33

Post by TPS »

Just like that - Onshore. That was insanely easy and it was a great answer. I can't believe it alluded me for so long.
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Hector
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#34

Post by Hector »

*eluded

Right on. Don't get addicted now . . .
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boharr
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#35

Post by boharr »

Eluded. That's still me. Ok, I could use a nudge is anyone wishes to push me.
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anjhinz
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#36

Post by anjhinz »

Jeeeesh I was trying WAY too hard for too long on this... Still not seeing the "extra" though....
LesY
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#37

Post by LesY »

anjhinz wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:49 pm Jeeeesh I was trying WAY too hard for too long on this... Still not seeing the "extra" though....
If it helps, the “extra” is very much related to the “not extra.” You may even have noticed some of it already.
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anjhinz
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#38

Post by anjhinz »

Ah yeah, OK, I think I get it now. As far as I can tell it was my original solving path. Thanks!
LesY wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:40 pm
anjhinz wrote: Sat Apr 04, 2020 2:49 pm Jeeeesh I was trying WAY too hard for too long on this... Still not seeing the "extra" though....
If it helps, the “extra” is very much related to the “not extra.” You may even have noticed some of it already.
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boharr
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#39

Post by boharr »

Solved -- once I was pushed to look where I should have but didn't. Doh.
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#40

Post by Laura M »

I've been avoiding this topic because I didn't solve this one until today. Somehow my brain got the idea that the right path was something that I'd already tried without success! Nice one, and I agree that it's more elegant than it first appears.
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