#599 - "Directors Meeting"

[David R]

If you work a meta with someone else, that's one thing. To get a hint from someone who has solved it, is something completely different. I would consider that stepping over the line and none of the rationales I have heard makes that acceptable in my book.

There is no such thing as "stepping over the line." They're crosswords. People do this for fun. And these particular crosswords are ones that we all paid money for, at which point I feel like whatever way makes you feel like you're getting your money's worth is the right way to do it. And if it really is so offensive that people who get help get the same credit on the leaderboard as solo-solvers do, well, that's why the submission form has the "Solo solve" question. No one is trying to pretend that they solved it on their own when they didn't. We're just trying to learn and work through it in a way that makes it fun.

Of course there is such a thing as stepping over the line. We clearly don't state answers and giving hints is clearly subjective so depending on how obvious they are, they can be more then a nudge and they can be a push to getting the meta. It creates a clear unfair playing field. We discuss how difficult a meta is based on how many people solve it. That criteria is now been thrown out the window as we head to the "steroid era" where if you don't solve it all you need to do is come here and get a "nudge" to help you solve it. Paying money does not entitle you to play by different rules. The only item I have clearly seen Matt say is OK is working with someone else to solve a meta. There is an honor code on solving these and it feels like we're going down a rabbit hole if this becomes the norm.

[ky-mike]

Here is a link to the solution - https://crosswordfiend.com/2019/11/26/m ... ore-109390

I missed this one. I got the four crossing letters, but found movie directors (heads) who all had the the first names(could also be heads) of the crossing answers. I unscrambled the letters as "CONE" and added "HEADS" to that to get the movie "Coneheads", which was an early 1990s movie. When that answer proved to be wrong, I kicked myself as I realized that the letters also spelled COEN. However, I never got the Miller link. Oh well, I guess the streak will be starting over soon.

[Laura M]

Yeah, I was never going to get that one; I hadn't heard of the movie or half the people!

[Cindy]

Matt was very clear when he made the solo solve announcement. You cannot have worked with anyone in any way. You cannot get a hint. You cannot confirm your answer with someone. I sometimes solve alone. I sometimes solve with my husband. I sometimes solve With friends. I rarely check the solo solve button because I usually have at least told my husband what I’m thinking. I enjoy the camaraderie of group solving just as I enjoyed solving puzzles alone in a room of 375 people at Lolla. I know there are some folks who think google is cheating also. But it is not my place to determine others moral compass.

[Cindy]

Matt was very clear when he made the solo solve announcement. You cannot have worked with anyone in any way. You cannot get a hint. You cannot confirm your answer with someone. I sometimes solve alone. I sometimes solve with my husband. I sometimes solve With friends. I rarely check the solo solve button because I usually have at least told my husband what I’m thinking. I enjoy the camaraderie of group solving just as I enjoyed solving puzzles alone in a room of 375 people at Lolla. I know there are some folks who think google is cheating also. But it is not my place to determine others moral compass.

[oldjudge]

If you work a meta with someone else, that's one thing. To get a hint from someone who has solved it, is something completely different. I would consider that stepping over the line and none of the rationales I have heard makes that acceptable in my book.

There is no such thing as "stepping over the line." They're crosswords. People do this for fun. And these particular crosswords are ones that we all paid money for, at which point I feel like whatever way makes you feel like you're getting your money's worth is the right way to do it. And if it really is so offensive that people who get help get the same credit on the leaderboard as solo-solvers do, well, that's why the submission form has the "Solo solve" question. No one is trying to pretend that they solved it on their own when they didn't. We're just trying to learn and work through it in a way that makes it fun.

Of course there is such a thing as stepping over the line. We clearly don't state answers and giving hints is clearly subjective so depending on how obvious they are, they can be more then a nudge and they can be a push to getting the meta. It creates a clear unfair playing field. We discuss how difficult a meta is based on how many people solve it. That criteria is now been thrown out the window as we head to the "steroid era" where if you don't solve it all you need to do is come here and get a "nudge" to help you solve it. Paying money does not entitle you to play by different rules. The only item I have clearly seen Matt say is OK is working with someone else to solve a meta. There is an honor code on solving these and it feels like we're going down a rabbit hole if this becomes the norm.

Agree completely!

[oldjudge]

For those who could not solve this one, the solution shows that there was no inside joke, either you saw all the Miller names or you didn’t. I spent a lot of time looking for directors names in the grid. I was even looking for initials. The SAS, which are Spielberg’s initials, had me convinced that this was the right path, but it wasn’t. The other thing that slowed me down was being lazy. I saw the Bode within the first ten minutes of looking at the completed grid and thought of Bode Miller, but I thought Bode in the name was spelled Bodie and I never took the ten seconds to check. That ten second saving probably cost me three hours. 3D had me thinking of a Coen Brothers movie, just not the right one. If I had been forced to guess I would have gone with the Big Big Lebowski, one of my all time favorites. Then again, you can never be wrong going with The Big Lebowski.

[BarbaraK]

I was never going to get this one. The only Miller I’d heard of is Glenn Miller. (And if I’d happened to have thought of him, I’d probably have gone looking for other big band directors.)

Congratulations to everyone who solved it. And happy Thanksgiving to all.

[LesY]

For me this was positive karmic payback for missing Union Meeting, where I kept trying to use the exact same mechanism that ended up working here. Win some, lose some. And come this Friday I fully expect to lose one.

Btw check out Crossword Fiend for an entirely different debate about this one. The great pgw's cross examinations alone are worth it. (And I look forward to his puzzle this evening!)

[JJD]

Nope.
Never in a miller-ion years was I getting that.

I just don’t know how some people’s brains will find an arbitrary last name for lots of different first names, when there are 5 “OR”s in the puzzle (direct-OR?)
And since directors say “cut”, surely the meeting would be the joining of name(s) that were cut: I see CAMERON & EPHRON with single letters cut out.
And when I noticed all the names in the puzzle, I missed BODE, but included the 2 very unusual names: EPHRAIM & IGOR.
Congratulations to all the solvers. I’m in awe.

[TMart]

I thought this was a great puzzle - one of those simple and difficult ones from Matt, and it took up all of my weekend and then some, so a very satisfying solve in the end. I guessed from the beginning almost exactly what to do, but just couldn’t see the specifics right away, and got fooled at first by too many names, and one that I didn’t recognize as a name (which I think is a feature, not a glitch).

Wide corners of the grid and the word “meeting” in the title screamed crossing entries. I figured there would be a director’s name (probably 4-6 letter long) spelled by intersecting letters, and something else to indicate the movie. I noticed a ton of first names, but ended up spending lots of time Googling directors with those names, and came up empty. Then I looked at just the names, but included “Anya” and “Igor” (but not “Bode”) and again came up empty on the intersecting letters. (I also tried to backsolve for “Lucas” on a hunch that it could be a Star Wars movie - nothing there.) I Googled “directors with 4 letters in their name” and got a short list (that included the Coens) but still didn’t see it (even with the Big Lebowski hint at 3D).

Finally, ready to give up and staring at the grid for the thousandth time, Reggie and Sienna clicked and made me think of "Miller", probably because Sienna Miller kept coming up in my fruitless Googles. Then Dennis, then Glenn. Aha - lots of Millers and they're all crossing! Aha again - I know that movie! Then I Googled “Igor Miller” and found nothing, but still had enough to go on. It was only after I submitted the answer that I went back and saw Bode and found COEN on the intersections, which made the title make sense and brought the whole puzzle together.

“Bode” was what made this so difficult - it doesn’t jump out as a name until you realize from the others that you’re looking for people named Miller. And I thought the distraction of having Igor and Anya in there also was a genius move that made this puzzle a week 4 instead of a week 2 or 3. Otherwise, the COEN on the name crossings would have been pretty obvious, even without the Miller connection at that point. Looking at just the names early on, I was coming up with CYGNE, which made no sense and made me abandon that idea for a while.

It took me forever to get this one, but I would have kicked myself if I missed it - I’m a big fan of Coen Brothers movies. “Raising Arizona” is an all-time classic. Now just waiting on the pgwcc - sounds like Peter had a tough go of it on this one too!

[FrankieHeck]

“Bode” was what made this so difficult - it doesn’t jump out as a name until you realize from the others that you’re looking for people named Miller.

I was the total opposite: BODE was where I got my breakthrough here, and led me to look up all the other Millers. I also thought the title suggested could suggest crossing answers, and there were just so many names...

I know nothing about movies, and I had maybe heard of two of the other Millers, so I think it's a miracle that I got this one!

[Laura M]

I didn't want to mention this before in case it was part of the meta, and then later I forgot, but there was something that bothered me in the grid. 21A: How is LESS an answer to "___-free"? I had MESS there to begin with, which I thought made sense, but I had to change it when I eventually looked up 7D. Insignificant, but I was just wondering if anybody could explain. Thanks!

I'd post about all of my rabbit holes but I think they've been covered in CrosswordFiend. I still can't believe that REGGIE crossed with SLUGGER was a coincidence...

[mkmf]

I didn't want to mention this before in case it was part of the meta, and then later I forgot, but there was something that bothered me in the grid. 21A: How is LESS an answer to "___-free"? I had MESS there to begin with, which I thought made sense, but I had to change it when I eventually looked up 7D. Insignificant, but I was just wondering if anybody could explain. Thanks!

I know! I think the trick was to realize that this isn't a fill-in-the-blank clue like you typed it in above. The clue is actually just "-free". I made the same mistake, and really scratched my head after getting LESS from the crossings. Then I noticed there wasn't a blank there. So... if you have a smoke-free room, say, you could also say it was smokeless. "-free" = "less" (and "-less" too, I guess)

[Laura M]

I know! I think the trick was to realize that this isn't a fill-in-the-blank clue like you typed it in above. The clue is actually just "-free". I made the same mistake, and really scratched my head after getting LESS from the crossings. Then I noticed there wasn't a blank there. So... if you have a smoke-free room, say, you could also say it was smokeless. "-free" = "less" (and "-less" too, I guess)

Oh wow, you're right, there isn't a blank! This makes so much more sense now. Thank you!