"What Not To Do" - March 27, 2020

A place to discuss the weekly Wall Street Journal Crossword Puzzle Contest, starting every Thursday around 4:00 p.m. Eastern time. Please do not post any answers or hints before the contest deadline which is midnight Sunday Eastern time.
Locked
User avatar
Toby
Posts: 332
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:00 pm
Location: New York City

#361

Post by Toby »

Bird Lives wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:33 am "How does MONOTONOUS describe the theme entries?"

I think that many children found their parents' continuous admonitions to be monotonous. Not my parents of course. What they repeated was the playing of the LP of "New Faces of 1952," which included this song by Eartha Kitt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXMwK18JQZs

She found other things monotonous.

Has anyone else around here even heard of this song?
New to me, but loved it!!!
User avatar
Julie O
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:36 am
Location: Clarendon Hills, IL

#362

Post by Julie O »

Count me as never having left the ship, even though I had a very kind muggle on the beach waving semaphores in an attempt to hint me in the right direction. There's always next week!
Laura M
Posts: 1384
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:49 am

#363

Post by Laura M »

DrTom wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:25 am Gosh guys, although we all had opinions nobody flinched when all those who got the incorrect answer to Higher Education (i.e. did not chose MELLON) gave different answers and reasons for their answers even though they had not followed the instructions or pulled the answer from the grid but inferred what the grid might have been asking. There were deemed two correct answers for that?
As a member of Team Carnegie on that puzzle, I flinched just now. I followed the instructions and pulled MELLON from the grid, but I assumed that this answer indicated the school Carnegie Mellon, founded by Andrew Carnegie. I think that's a different category of wrong answer, although I honestly don't think I would have complained if that answer hadn't been accepted. My fault, insufficient Googling :-)
User avatar
yourpalsal
Posts: 177
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:28 am

#364

Post by yourpalsal »

So how many right answers did they get, and who won the mug?
User avatar
spotter
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:48 pm
Location: SLO, CA

#365

Post by spotter »

Over in the comments at crossword fiend, Matt Gaffney himself says he'd accept ADMONITION. Maybe that settles the debate going on here today:

"Ah, using the AD from MADE BACON, as here. forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=339&start=300#p16579

I have to admit that that’s very clever and understandable. If this were a MGWCC I would count ADMONITION as a correct alt-answer based on this.

That’s quite remarkable that my MADE BACON inelegance could lead to another answer like this. True, the fragments aren’t in order and you have to randomly use two of them backwards, but still. That’s just an amazing set of circumstances."
User avatar
MajordomoTom
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:09 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

#366

Post by MajordomoTom »

you think "Don't Stand So Close To Me" is monotonous?

you haven't listened to "Roxanne" recently, have you?

Yes, that's an admonition to NOT listen to it.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
steveb
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:25 pm
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

#367

Post by steveb »

Laura M wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:41 pm
DrTom wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:25 am Gosh guys, although we all had opinions nobody flinched when all those who got the incorrect answer to Higher Education (i.e. did not chose MELLON) gave different answers and reasons for their answers even though they had not followed the instructions or pulled the answer from the grid but inferred what the grid might have been asking. There were deemed two correct answers for that?
As a member of Team Carnegie on that puzzle, I flinched just now. I followed the instructions and pulled MELLON from the grid, but I assumed that this answer indicated the school Carnegie Mellon, founded by Andrew Carnegie. I think that's a different category of wrong answer, although I honestly don't think I would have complained if that answer hadn't been accepted. My fault, insufficient Googling :-)
Yeah, that was a different situation. I also submitted Carnegie on that one because, just like Laura, I pulled Mellon from the grid and thought it probably referred to the school, not the person. I wondered if Mellon had founded a college I never heard of, so I googled "Mellon college founder." The answer: Andrew Carnegie!

I'm afraid you won't get support like that from Google for the alternate answer this week.
User avatar
Eric Porter
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 2:19 am
Location: Nashville, TN

#368

Post by Eric Porter »

After seeing DrTom's post on ADMONITION, I'm more sympathetic to counting it as a correct answer, but it's a stretch.
While I was solving it, I saw 'MADE', but thought that 'MOUSE' was better. I'd even considered ADMONITION, but couldn't justify it, so I explored other options.

The grid is divided vertically into 4 sections, which is highly unusual. There are 4 theme answers. Each of the 4 theme answers has exactly one 'ME' in its fourth of the grid besides the 'ME' in the theme answer itself AND which fits the theme! When I saw this, I was 100% sure that MONOTONOUS was the intended answer. I was also 100% sure that MELLON was the intended answer for Higher Education too, though as I explained in that forum, I went to CMU and knew he was considered a founder.

I'm guessing most of the people who got ADMONITION saw the 'AD', assumed the answer was ADMONITION, then went about looking for evidence to justify their conclusion. I feel that's the wrong way to solve a meta crossword. It's like in the TV show CSI, you follow the evidence. You don't assume someone's guilty and only look for evidence supporting that theory, because it will blind you to any contrary evidence.
User avatar
MajordomoTom
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:09 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

#369

Post by MajordomoTom »

yes, but you "started" with MO

the very first theme answer is "DON'T START WITH ME".

we started with the 4th one and then looped back. You started with ME - you didn't follow answer #1's second layer/meaning.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
User avatar
DrTom
Posts: 3765
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:46 pm
Location: Jacksonville, FL

#370

Post by DrTom »

Eric Porter wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:15 pm After seeing DrTom's post on ADMONITION, I'm more sympathetic to counting it as a correct answer, but it's a stretch.
While I was solving it, I saw 'MADE', but thought that 'MOUSE' was better. I'd even considered ADMONITION, but couldn't justify it, so I explored other options.

The grid is divided vertically into 4 sections, which is highly unusual. There are 4 theme answers. Each of the 4 theme answers has exactly one 'ME' in its fourth of the grid besides the 'ME' in the theme answer itself AND which fits the theme! When I saw this, I was 100% sure that MONOTONOUS was the intended answer. I was also 100% sure that MELLON was the intended answer for Higher Education too, though as I explained in that forum, I went to CMU and knew he was considered a founder.

I'm guessing most of the people who got ADMONITION saw the 'AD', assumed the answer was ADMONITION, then went about looking for evidence to justify their conclusion. I feel that's the wrong way to solve a meta crossword. It's like in the TV show CSI, you follow the evidence. You don't assume someone's guilty and only look for evidence supporting that theory, because it will blind you to any contrary evidence.
Actually I started with MO for Clue #1, then got IN for Clue #2, got ON for Clue #4, AD for Clue #5 (since I have never gotten three letters from one clue so I threw out MOUSE). I will admit with MO IN AD ON and knowing that all the themes entries were admonitions, I searched for the IT and saw IT "standing" on ME (which I posited was allowable after last weeks use of the clue in the solve). But you know what, it really is not worth all this concern. It is a game and one I am never likely to "MUG" in anyway since I probably solve only 80% of these at best and am always pretty late to the party. I'm gonna go back and fry some more fish.
NUDGES!I am always willing to give nudges where needed; metas should be about fun, not frustration. Send me what you have done so far because often you are closer than you think!
User avatar
MarkL
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:44 am
Location: Tampa Bay, FL

#371

Post by MarkL »

I am sympathetic, and empathetic toward, the ADMONITION argument (I took the long, graphical route to that original alternate answer puzzle).

If we start accepting(?) solutions that require selected parts of clues and reading them backwards and/or anagramming them, then where does it stop?

Author/constructor intent is what matters. Other possible solutions are unintended "happy accidents," and could be appreciated as such.

I'll leave it to the math whizzes to figure out the number of possible usable fragments in a typical15x15 grid.

Hopefully, that wasnt monotonous.

Be safe out there.
'tis... A lovely day for a Guinness!
User avatar
DBMiller
Posts: 537
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:59 pm
Location: New Hampshire

#372

Post by DBMiller »

I too, didn't think of these as double negatives. The title was a direction on what NOT to do. So letters/answers that violated the theme answers would be suspect.

I quickly found MEMO and MOUSE, and was also confused over what to do with INME. At first, I was thinking "IN" was touching "ME", and with MO - ? - IN - ? - OUS was looking for MOLIMINOUS, but MONOTONOUS was on my mind from just the MO.......OUS.

When I realized AME had ME "standing" in it, MONOTNOUS looked much better and so I looked again at INME and saw that the only squares with a full side of the square touch the ME squares were NOT. Click!

MADEBACON was also seen, but I liked MOUSE for interrupting ME much better, and quickly disregarded it.
If I'm around, I am willing to join the Muggle Zoom room at other times to lend a hand to those in need.
User avatar
MajordomoTom
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:09 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

#373

Post by MajordomoTom »

chill out and make bacon.

if Matt wanted it to be MONOTONOUS, it is because ... HE HAS SPOKEN.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
User avatar
Jeremy Smith
Posts: 970
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:45 pm
Location: Tampa Bay area

#374

Post by Jeremy Smith »

I too was distracted by MADEBACON, even though I had the rest of the letters used in MONOTONOUS. I randomly dropped enough letters to make 10 letter words, and actually had MONOTONOUS on one of the lists. I disregarded that approach because I was stuck on the idea that the answer would be related to the current national crisis, ala last weeks’s MGWCC.
Inca
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:55 pm

#375

Post by Inca »

spotter wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:37 am When I highlighted the theme answers, it really highlighted the relevant 'ME's nicely. In the top is the start with me, then the touch me, then the standing me, and finally the interrupted me. I thought it was a nice clean construction.Finished.PNG
I'm with you on this one. I liked it and was surprised to see how many did not. And I think your explanation and illustration said it well.
DeneenOmer
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:39 pm

#376

Post by DeneenOmer »

spotter wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:37 am When I highlighted the theme answers, it really highlighted the relevant 'ME's nicely. In the top is the start with me, then the touch me, then the standing me, and finally the interrupted me. I thought it was a nice clean construction.Finished.PNG

Thank you! For your picture and helpful explanation. I’m new to this and I was doubting myself on how Monotonous made it. Your color coded picture helped me sooo much!!
User avatar
BarbaraK
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:37 pm
Location: Virginia

#377

Post by BarbaraK »

spotter wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:29 pm Over in the comments at crossword fiend, Matt Gaffney himself says he'd accept ADMONITION. Maybe that settles the debate going on here today:

"Ah, using the AD from MADE BACON, as here. forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=339&start=300#p16579

I have to admit that that’s very clever and understandable. If this were a MGWCC I would count ADMONITION as a correct alt-answer based on this.

That’s quite remarkable that my MADE BACON inelegance could lead to another answer like this. True, the fragments aren’t in order and you have to randomly use two of them backwards, but still. That’s just an amazing set of circumstances."
This doesn't surprise me. Matt strikes me as generous (maybe sometimes overly so) in accepting alternate answers on MGWCC.

It also points out a big difference between MGWCC and WSJ. MGWCC runs a long term contest with prizes based on the number of unassisted solves in each year. So every submission must be marked right or wrong, and there's an appeals process plus an independent panel that can overrule Matt's opinions.

WSJ runs a newspaper with crosswords as just one small feature. They (cleverly, IMO) set up their contest to keep it simple to run. They don't have to adjudicate every answer every week, only the one randomly selected for the mug. Mike Miller coming by every week to tell us about the submissions is a much appreciated bonus.

So this forum is the perfect place to discuss alternate possibilities! Anyone can argue their case, collect opinions, and decide whether to count themself correct in their own personal record keeping.
User avatar
LittleGood
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:21 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh

#378

Post by LittleGood »

I only finished the Thursday puzzle this afternoon and it took me nearly an hour to do the Monday puzzle. Of course I was completely lost at sea with this week's contest.

I have always considered myself to be an introvert, but I think this social distancing its starting to dull me a bit.

Moot point: I was an English major at CMU, and Carnegie was definitely a founder (a person who manufactures articles of cast metal; the owner or operator of a foundry)
Last edited by LittleGood on Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
LittleGood
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:21 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh

#379

Post by LittleGood »

LittleGood wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:50 pm I only finished the Thursday puzzle this afternoon and it took me nearly an hour to do the Monday puzzle. Of course I was completely lost at sea with this week's contest.

I have always considered myself to be an introvert, but I think this social distancing its starting to dull me a bit.

Moot point: I was an English major at CMU, and Carnegie was definitely a founder (a person who manufactures articles of cast metal; the owner or operator of a foundry)
Oh... and the Pens definitely would have won the Stanley Cup this year.
User avatar
MajordomoTom
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:09 am
Location: St. Louis, MO

#380

Post by MajordomoTom »

nope, the Blues were set to repeat, sorry to have to pick a fight during this time of distancing.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
Locked