"Continuing Education" - February 7, 2020

A place to discuss the weekly Wall Street Journal Crossword Puzzle Contest, starting every Thursday around 4:00 p.m. Eastern time. Please do not post any answers or hints before the contest deadline which is midnight Sunday Eastern time.
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matthewmoravec
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Re: "Continuing Education" - February 7, 2020

#241

Post by matthewmoravec » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:47 am

I enjoyed the meta and submitted MELLON, but I was definitely thrown off for a while by the abbreviated SOPH for the non-abbreviated clue "Next year's junior," especially considering that the continuing OMORE is also a college founder! https://williamsonsource.com/10-things- ... of-design/

boharr
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#242

Post by boharr » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:00 am

Very fair resolution by WSJ. And I won't carp as it's a rare thing that there is a meta even I can solve!

Nlobb
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#243

Post by Nlobb » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:02 am

I too found Mellon and then checked with Mr G to see if he was a college founder. The CMU site I saw had both Andrews on it with their pictures side by side. So I submitted Mellon as there were no clues leading to Carnegie anywhere in the puzzle.

Streroto
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#244

Post by Streroto » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:18 am

tim1217 wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 am
My very first thought turned out to be quite a few red herrings. Noticing the following grid entries:

ENROLL
IRVINE
CLASS
GRADS
SOPH
REGRADE
DORM

Of course there is also SCHOOLS which given its central placement, was a clue to the mechanism.
I too saw the IRVINE in there, in fact you can make UC IRVINE out of it so it “continues” This kept me confused for a little while before I decided that it was not entirely consistent because of the abbreviations, and went with MELLON which proved to be correct.

Streroto
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#245

Post by Streroto » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:19 am

Devilbunny wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:21 am
I got the answer, but U(C)-IRVINE was right there and delayed me a few moments. It didn't start at the far left column, and it didn't match the symmetry, so I tossed it, but it did weigh on me a bit.
Me too

LesY
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#246

Post by LesY » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:22 am

jenirvin wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:36 am
spotter wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:04 am
I submitted Andrew Carnegie, and like steveb, I'm personally counting it as a win.
Ditto. I overthought it. I was just going to go with Mellon, since that's what was there, but then remembered other puzzles where the last part of the justification was "which suggests..." It's a loss, but it's a win. We had the answer, but we just went a step too far. (For all those who submitted the correct answer - I know, I know. It's NOT a win!) :lol:


P.S. - as someone who works at a university, it bothered me a bit that Carnegie Mellon is not a college, but a university, that the Mellon brothers didn't found a college, but an institute and/or school... still, since there's a Mellon College of Science at CMU, which was formed when the two merged, I should have gone that route, but I tend not to Google and didn't know that off the cuff.
IMO Jen's P.S. hits the nail on the head. When I saw the Mellon College in Wikipedia I stopped researching and satisfied myself that the simplest answer (Mellon) was the way to go. Even with the technical challenges others have noted.

Plus Mike's puzzles usually (although not always) pull letters from the grid to form the answer. When he goes beyond that it usually involves repeating the primary meta mechanism one more time, not jumping laterally to something else (which is what would have been required here to get to Carnegie).

Update: It's all "academic" since the first answer WSJ pulled was a "Mellon." :) Clearly anyone who came up with Carnegie figured it out.
Last edited by LesY on Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BarbaraK
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#247

Post by BarbaraK » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:23 am

MikeMillerwsj wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:44 am
Greetings--we had a big turnout this week: 1739 entries. Here at contest headquarters we have discussed the debate over whether CARNEGIE is an acceptable answer and concluded that it is. Anyone who submitted Carnegie clearly cracked the code of this puzzle and then added an additional, logical step. Like others above, we've been catching up on the history of CMU, and we see that the university's own website names both as founders. The details of the history (Carnegie started a school, Mellon started an industrial research center, and then they merged) also helps support Carnegie as a reasonable answer.

We had 1274 submissions for Mellon and 306 for Carnegie (including submissions that offered both names). Congrats to this week's winner (on Team Mellon): Janna Walker of Fall City, Wash.!
It was very nice of you to consider the CARNEGIE question even though, since your random selection had MELLON, you didn't have to. I'm sure all those who'd otherwise have been in limbo appreciate it. And it keeps my spreadsheet accurate:)

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Colin
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#248

Post by Colin » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:30 am

Like some others, I found MELLON and then added an extra step to the meta and submitted Andrew Carnegie...
:(
But I will count it as “The Bonus Win”...
:)
No chance of a mug though...
:(
One world. One planet. One future.

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Al Sisti
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#249

Post by Al Sisti » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:35 am

I was in Camp MELLON, and seeing over 300 submissions of CARNEGIE, I can now say that my trepidation was justified. Glad to hear that both answers were accepted...

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Hector
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#250

Post by Hector » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:52 am

damefox wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:01 am
"a family name in higher education," or something along those lines.
This.

Not every puzzle can be perfect, so no surprise that there is a clanger once in a while. But as internet critics it falls upon us the important work of holding the geniuses' feet to the fire.

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damefox
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#251

Post by damefox » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:11 pm

MikeMillerwsj wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:44 am
Like others above, we've been catching up on the history of CMU, and we see that the university's own website names both as founders.
Perhaps this should've been done before the puzzle was published...
Hector wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:52 am
Not every puzzle can be perfect, so no surprise that there is a clanger once in a while. But as internet critics it falls upon us the important work of holding the geniuses' feet to the fire.
Or at least to ask that research be done before, not after, publication. Even geniuses need to fact-check sometimes.

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DrTom
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#252

Post by DrTom » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:31 pm

I had this long rant about the subject but decided there are way too many rants. There is one answer for this puzzle - MELLON (whether RICHARD or ANDREW) because the hint says "The answer this week is a college founder", not "The answer this week suggests a College founder" or "The answer this week names a College that was founded by someone" (because the ONLY Mellon College [of Science] WAS founded by the Mellons).

It was kind of a gimme puzzle (must be cause I got it after throwing out IRVINE) and we are all just gun shy from previous burns, leave Mike alone.

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Janet P
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#253

Post by Janet P » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:39 pm

Since the powers that be at WSJ considered CARNEGIE a "correct" submission, does that mean I can keep my streak?
I'm not quite sure it feels copacetic...
Help, please!
“For myself, I am an optimist. It does not seem much use being anything else...”
― Winston Churchill, The Lord Mayor's Banquet, 9 November 1954

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Al Sisti
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#254

Post by Al Sisti » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:40 pm

Janet P wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:39 pm
Since the powers that be at WSJ considered CARNEGIE a "correct" submission, does that mean I can keep my streak?
I'm not quite sure it feels copacetic...
Help, please!
My answer is yes. There may be alternative correct answers.

steveb
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#255

Post by steveb » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:41 pm

DrTom wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:31 pm
I had this long rant about the subject but decided there are way too many rants. There is one answer for this puzzle - MELLON (whether RICHARD or ANDREW) because the hint says "The answer this week is a college founder", not "The answer this week suggests a College founder" or "The answer this week names a College that was founded by someone" (because the ONLY Mellon College [of Science] WAS founded by the Mellons).

It was kind of a gimme puzzle (must be cause I got it after throwing out IRVINE) and we are all just gun shy from previous burns, leave Mike alone.
Mellon College of Science was founded in 1967, I just learned from the all-knowing internet. Which Mellon was its founder - Andrew (d. 1937), Richard (d. 1933), or Andrew's son Paul? Hint: the published puzzle answer says "(Andrew) MELLON."

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FrankieHeck
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#256

Post by FrankieHeck » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:48 pm

Janet P wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:39 pm
Since the powers that be at WSJ considered CARNEGIE a "correct" submission, does that mean I can keep my streak?
I'm not quite sure it feels copacetic...
Help, please!
I say we keep our streaks, since we are the only ones keeping the data. We can attach a mental asterisk ;-)

They decided they would accept our answer if they'd drawn it, so that's good enough for me.

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Bob cruise director
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#257

Post by Bob cruise director » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:29 pm

MikeMillerwsj wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:44 am
Greetings--we had a big turnout this week: 1739 entries. Here at contest headquarters we have discussed the debate over whether CARNEGIE is an acceptable answer and concluded that it is. Anyone who submitted Carnegie clearly cracked the code of this puzzle and then added an additional, logical step. Like others above, we've been catching up on the history of CMU, and we see that the university's own website names both as founders. The details of the history (Carnegie started a school, Mellon started an industrial research center, and then they merged) also helps support Carnegie as a reasonable answer.

We had 1274 submissions for Mellon and 306 for Carnegie (including submissions that offered both names). Congrats to this week's winner (on Team Mellon): Janna Walker of Fall City, Wash.!
Janna commented once on the WSJ site but not on the blog so we are claiming that a muggle won.
Bob Stevens
Cruise Director

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DrTom
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#258

Post by DrTom » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:40 pm

steveb wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:41 pm
DrTom wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:31 pm
I had this long rant about the subject but decided there are way too many rants. There is one answer for this puzzle - MELLON (whether RICHARD or ANDREW) because the hint says "The answer this week is a college founder", not "The answer this week suggests a College founder" or "The answer this week names a College that was founded by someone" (because the ONLY Mellon College [of Science] WAS founded by the Mellons).

It was kind of a gimme puzzle (must be cause I got it after throwing out IRVINE) and we are all just gun shy from previous burns, leave Mike alone.
Mellon College of Science was founded in 1967, I just learned from the all-knowing internet. Which Mellon was its founder - Andrew (d. 1937), Richard (d. 1933), or Andrew's son Paul? Hint: the published puzzle answer says "(Andrew) MELLON."
Oh, I submitted (Andrew) MELLON and was not griping because I missed the answer (if I did that it would be an almost weekly thing). I'm just saying that logical alternative answers can be derived from MANY of the CPC Fridays, but only if it is a "what could the answer be if you can justify it". For instance, if one came up with the letters RENAL, and the hint says "This weeks answer is an internal organ of detoxification" and the answer was KIDNEY, you could argue for BLADDER because it is an extension of the kidney, but that is not the answer the puzzle gave you. Or if the puzzle gave HEPATIC and the answer was LIVER but you answered BOWEL because that is how much of the detoxified substances leave, once again a decent argument but wrong.

Sure, we would all like to win a mug, but it seems like that is getting to be the only reason people are puzzling/posting and not for the fun facts and repartee found on this board. This forum is one of the places I go for intelligent "conversation" and to expand my knowledge. I've even been able to answer several Jeopardy questions based only on muggle info! So I'm making a request, in rhyme (and unfortunately I have no idea of its style but I suspect Iambic Pentameter):

While striving to work out the meta, many great things are gained
Knowledge of English and Science, hopefully all retained
Camaraderie with others like-minded, formulae for many drinks
Elation at grabbing the AHA, or breaking a few weeks of jinx
But when it comes down to griping, over possibly missing a mug
It reminds of the state of our Union and gives my heartstrings a tug
Please let’s return to our “nerd fests” when winning was not such a care
I believe we were all the most happy when our culprit was only the hare

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oldjudge
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#259

Post by oldjudge » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:15 pm

damefox wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:11 pm
MikeMillerwsj wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:44 am
Like others above, we've been catching up on the history of CMU, and we see that the university's own website names both as founders.
Perhaps this should've been done before the puzzle was published...
Hector wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:52 am
Not every puzzle can be perfect, so no surprise that there is a clanger once in a while. But as internet critics it falls upon us the important work of holding the geniuses' feet to the fire.
Or at least to ask that research be done before, not after, publication. Even geniuses need to fact-check sometimes.
Was that puzzle done by Mike Shenk or the people who developed the Iowa caucus app?

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MajordomoTom
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#260

Post by MajordomoTom » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:29 pm

I'm also in Camp MELLON (but not a big fan of John Mellencamp/Cougar) ... and greatly appreciate the contest judges granting that the answer CARNEGIE shows that the solver clearly understood the mechanism and the path to the correct (first) answer and followed it to the second answer.

Very fair.

And, IMHO, a "college founder" would be someone like Yale, or Wheelock, or Eliot (WashU), someone who directly founded the college that continued on as the college/university, not someone who founded a non-college which later (after their death) was merged into a college/university. Yes, being picky, but as a grad of WashU (a U) married to a grad of Darthmouth College (a C), Us and Cs are VERY different things.

I submitted MELLON being directly derived from the puzzle mechanism, but feeling it to be wrong as he did not found a college nor a university.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.

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