Help for would-be solvers: 2 Dec 2019

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Devilbunny
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Help for would-be solvers: 2 Dec 2019

#1

Post by Devilbunny »

So, for those of us who aren't as good as we want to be, but just want a hint rather than a full-blown solution, this is a thread for more experienced Muggles to offer advice. I have asked in the main thread for spoiler tags to be enabled for this purpose, but in the meantime I would ask that any hints provided before 0600 Eastern be very vague. From 0600 to 1200, offer up step 1 and hint at step 2. After 1200 ET, it's a free-for-all. I would prefer finer divisions, but we don't have the ability to do spoiler tags yet. Don't scroll down if you don't want the info.

Thanks to all who offer their advice.
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CPJohnson
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#2

Post by CPJohnson »

I offer this as a vague hint: consider the title. Stare at the theme answers. Stare at the other grid words.

Is this what you had in mind as โ€œvague?โ€
Cynthia
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MajordomoTom
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#3

Post by MajordomoTom »

for first step, ignore the numbers in the four clues, they're needed at a later step.

do "the usual" with the answers in the puzzle.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
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Joe Ross
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#4

Post by Joe Ross »

Dennis wrote: โ†‘Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:49 pm I find these with parenthetical numerals particularly puzzling!
SPOILER ALERT: Below are links to three hints. These hints are questions and do not give the meta answer, but give progressively stronger hints at how to look at the puzzle.

QUESTION ONE

QUESTION TWO

QUESTION THREE
Last edited by Joe Ross on Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whole blood, platelets, or plasma: Donate 4 in 2024

PLATELET ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€ ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ.
๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ENORMOUS ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ:
๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฌ% ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฐ,
๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฌ% ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ต, ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ,
๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ & ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฎ. ๐—ฃ๐—Ÿ๐—˜๐—”๐—ฆ๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—›๐—”๐—ฅ๐—˜!
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MajordomoTom
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#5

Post by MajordomoTom »

good hints to those who might need them
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
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BrianMac
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#6

Post by BrianMac »

I don't object to a thread like this, but I think it should only be started after the contest ends.
GlennG
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#7

Post by GlennG »

Thought this would be a good illustration for what I run into with meta puzzles and why I find them logically inconsistent:
1. Do the puzzle (duh). Puzzle is a pretty difficult one compared to Friday average, but nothing I can't handle.
2. We're left with the nebulous title ("Leftovers") and "what some people try after Thanksgiving" (equally nebulous). So two pieces of useless information with no form and no meaning.
3. Strange numbers are next to some clues. This pretty obviously labels these entries as theme entries and they are indeed "leftovers", consistent with the title. All logical information has now been exhausted from the puzzle.
4. So what do the numbers mean? No way to definitively tell their meaning so they are ultimately useless.
5. So do the theme entries have any other commonalities? Perhaps the numbers can be used to carve out "left overs" of each entry to indicate something. They do not.
6. No solution.

Again the problem: How do you know you are supposed to do as the "solution" indicates? Answer: You don't. So ultimately solving this just involved making a lucky wild-ass guess at the constructor's (this time Shenk) intentions.
Devilbunny
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#8

Post by Devilbunny »

BrianMac wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am I don't object to a thread like this, but I think it should only be started after the contest ends.
Iโ€™m sorry; I thought that post-only-after-deadline was understood. I should have been more explicit.
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Joe Ross
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#9

Post by Joe Ross »

I should have been smarter than to post when I did.
Whole blood, platelets, or plasma: Donate 4 in 2024

PLATELET ๐—ฑ๐—ผ๐—ป๐—ผ๐—ฟ๐˜€ ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ ๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ.
๐—ง๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐—ป๐—ฒ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ ๐—ถ๐˜€ ENORMOUS ๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ฟ๐—ฒ:
๐Ÿฐ๐Ÿฌ% ๐—ฝ๐—ฒ๐—ฑ๐—ถ๐—ฎ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ถ๐—ฐ,
๐Ÿฏ๐Ÿฌ% ๐—ฒ๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐—ต, ๐˜๐—ต๐—ฒ ๐˜๐—ฎ๐—ฐ๐˜๐—ถ๐—ฐ,
๐—ณ๐—ผ๐—ฟ ๐—ฐ๐—ฎ๐—ป๐—ฐ๐—ฒ๐—ฟ & ๐˜๐—ฟ๐—ฎ๐˜‚๐—บ๐—ฎ. ๐—ฃ๐—Ÿ๐—˜๐—”๐—ฆ๐—˜ ๐—ฆ๐—›๐—”๐—ฅ๐—˜!
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CPJohnson
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#10

Post by CPJohnson »

GlennG wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:04 am Thought this would be a good illustration for what I run into with meta puzzles and why I find them logically inconsistent:
1. Do the puzzle (duh). Puzzle is a pretty difficult one compared to Friday average, but nothing I can't handle.
2. We're left with the nebulous title ("Leftovers") and "what some people try after Thanksgiving" (equally nebulous). So two pieces of useless information with no form and no meaning.
3. Strange numbers are next to some clues. This pretty obviously labels these entries as theme entries and they are indeed "leftovers", consistent with the title. All logical information has now been exhausted from the puzzle.
4. So what do the numbers mean? No way to definitively tell their meaning so they are ultimately useless.
5. So do the theme entries have any other commonalities? Perhaps the numbers can be used to carve out "left overs" of each entry to indicate something. They do not.
6. No solution.

Again the problem: How do you know you are supposed to do as the "solution" indicates? Answer: You don't. So ultimately solving this just involved making a lucky wild-ass guess at the constructor's (this time Shenk) intentions.
I got some help by looking at old puzzles that used a similar mechanism: 4-15-16 and 5-13-16.
Cynthia
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CPJohnson
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#11

Post by CPJohnson »

Devilbunny wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:26 am
BrianMac wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:02 am I don't object to a thread like this, but I think it should only be started after the contest ends.
Iโ€™m sorry; I thought that post-only-after-deadline was understood. I should have been more explicit.
If I post here again, I'll wait until after the deadline. For me, that will be the next morning.
Cynthia
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FrankH
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#12

Post by FrankH »

GlennG wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:04 am Thought this would be a good illustration for what I run into with meta puzzles and why I find them logically inconsistent:
1. Do the puzzle (duh). Puzzle is a pretty difficult one compared to Friday average, but nothing I can't handle.
2. We're left with the nebulous title ("Leftovers") and "what some people try after Thanksgiving" (equally nebulous). So two pieces of useless information with no form and no meaning.
3. Strange numbers are next to some clues. This pretty obviously labels these entries as theme entries and they are indeed "leftovers", consistent with the title. All logical information has now been exhausted from the puzzle.
4. So what do the numbers mean? No way to definitively tell their meaning so they are ultimately useless.
5. So do the theme entries have any other commonalities? Perhaps the numbers can be used to carve out "left overs" of each entry to indicate something. They do not.
6. No solution.

Again the problem: How do you know you are supposed to do as the "solution" indicates? Answer: You don't. So ultimately solving this just involved making a lucky wild-ass guess at the constructor's (this time Shenk) intentions.
Most of the metas require you to find one letter (in this week's contest, two letters) for each theme entry, and then assemble those letters together to form the answer. Nearly always, you put the letters in certain orders (very often put them according to the order of the theme entries) to get the answer, no anagram is required. If you look at the numbers in parentheses in this week, you can see they are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. For me, it is a strong hint that this gives you the order of the letters in the answer, so that you don't have to do any anagram with the letters you found; it also indicates that you have to find two letters for each theme entry. Then "Leftovers" gives me the hint that there is a letter left over in a word. In this case, if you delete a letter in the theme letter words, you can rearrange the remaining letters to find another word in the grid. I suppose this title also applies if you add a letter to the theme letter words to find another word in the grid. But of course nothing is spelled out explicitly and you have to figure out what exactly the constructor has in mind; that is part of the game. In a way, it is sort of like NYT crosswords late in the week where the clues are vague and could mean many different things, and you need to figure out which meaning is the right one.

Numbers in parentheses have been used in past metas. If you have kept a record of these puzzles, you may want to go back and revisit them.
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MajordomoTom
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#13

Post by MajordomoTom »

GlennG - I can agree with some of your frustrations, but not with all of them.

It's clear that the four longer "leftover" words/answers must be relevant - Creamed Corn, Candied Yams, White Meat, Lima Beans. Now ... what to do with those? From previous puzzles, I know that the constructor likes to use parts of those words and parts of other words in the grid to "give you something". So ... I saw CANDIED and CANDID and ... that's an E. Ok, what else could I get from those - RACEME looks weird, ok, CREAMED, so there's a D. Then ... pretty quickly, got four letters.

Then I realized I could do it also with the other parts of the words - not just CANDIED but also YAMS. Ok, that gives me 8 letters, I don't like anagrams and wasn't getting far. It wasn't easy - CORN & ORC took me a while to find. As noted elsewhere, CORN and RECON tripped me up for a while.

Then I realized that the four clues with numbers - had the digits 1 through 8, no repeats. Ok, put my 8 letters into that order (if it was (4,1), that meant that the letter from the first part of that clue/answer was the fourth letter in the answer, and the letter from the second part was the first letter in the answer). NEWDIETS fell out immediately and fit the requested answer.

So the numbers weren't random, they were just needed to help you with the letters, from a "typical" Mike type of puzzle.

Hope that we get more practice with these and that all of us get better (which means he'll move on to something even more devious).

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
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CPJohnson
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#14

Post by CPJohnson »

MajordomoTom wrote: โ†‘Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:40 pm GlennG - I can agree with some of your frustrations, but not with all of them.

It's clear that the four longer "leftover" words/answers must be relevant - Creamed Corn, Candied Yams, White Meat, Lima Beans. Now ... what to do with those? From previous puzzles, I know that the constructor likes to use parts of those words and parts of other words in the grid to "give you something". So ... I saw CANDIED and CANDID and ... that's an E. Ok, what else could I get from those - RACEME looks weird, ok, CREAMED, so there's a D. Then ... pretty quickly, got four letters.

Then I realized I could do it also with the other parts of the words - not just CANDIED but also YAMS. Ok, that gives me 8 letters, I don't like anagrams and wasn't getting far. It wasn't easy - CORN & ORC took me a while to find. As noted elsewhere, CORN and RECON tripped me up for a while.

Then I realized that the four clues with numbers - had the digits 1 through 8, no repeats. Ok, put my 8 letters into that order (if it was (4,1), that meant that the letter from the first part of that clue/answer was the fourth letter in the answer, and the letter from the second part was the first letter in the answer). NEWDIETS fell out immediately and fit the requested answer.

So the numbers weren't random, they were just needed to help you with the letters, from a "typical" Mike type of puzzle.

Hope that we get more practice with these and that all of us get better (which means he'll move on to something even more devious).

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
For me, all Mike would have to do is wait 5-6 months and use this mechanism again; by then, I would have forgotten what to do with it.
Cynthia
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MajordomoTom
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#15

Post by MajordomoTom »

:)

or use it in a different way
"Lots of planets have a North", the Ninth Doctor.
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